One final point on my last post before we begin: I said no more blogging when I was sick, and that’s probably a good move. Of course, the truth is I don’t think that’s why I forgot in my last post that Cam Atkinson was the sixth member of the Mean Street Posse (apologies to those who didn’t get that joke, but the people who did are probably loving it).

I had completely forgotten that Cam had been arrested before his BC career started, and I assumed that if there were some sort of major disciplinary issue that affected his candidacy, I would have heard about it in the last few months. Of course, we all know what happens when one assumes: it makes an “ass” out of “u” and “me.” Of course, I can only speak for myself, and certainly not the more rude among those who left the 47 comments, but I certainly did feel quite sheepish when that oversight was pointed out. I apologize.

But we’re getting away from the point. This has been a two-horse race between Miele and Frattin for a good little while now, and as I continue to compare them, I’m going to leave Atkinson out of it. If it turns out on Friday that I’m wrong to do so, I will willingly eat all the crow BC fans wish to feed me while I try to figure out how Atkinson won the Hobey where Nathan Gerbe, Patrick Eaves, and Brian Gionta (among others) did not.

So, moving along, we’re going to look at that whole debate that started after our pals over at Inside College Hockey crunched some numbers and determined that Frattin had done a lot of his damage this season against the bottom half of the WCHA, where Miele was much stronger than Frattin against the top half of their respective conferences. While Miele’s supporters point to this as evidence that Miele is more deserving of the award, Frattin’s supporters argue – not without a point, mind you – that the WCHA is a stronger conference top to bottom, with more Teams Under Consideration, and it’s not as if Frattin is beating up on bad teams.

Personally, I feel there’s be a limit on how much strength of schedule and conference strength should be considered when an individual award is on the line. It reminds me of one of the things I hate most about the BCS in football: the idea that scheduling decisions made years beforehand can wind up affecting how voters consider two players’ achievements. I believe that you play the hand you’re dealt, and you make the most of it. Now, does that mean Paul Zanette’s goals should be weighed equally against Matt Frattin? No. As much as I like Atlantic Hockey, I don’t think anyone will argue that the conference doesn’t have the top-to-bottom strength of other conferences in the country, even though the Atlantic Hockey champion has shown itself to be a darn good team, year in and year out, in the NCAA tournament. I think that if Miele played better in the toughest games on his schedule than Frattin did in the toughest games on his schedule, that’s worth considering.

Still, I did a little numbers work of my own, and came up with what I think is a fair means of comparing the two players: points against teams that competed in this year’s NCAA tournament. This cuts out any debate over whether the seventh, eighth or ninth place team in the WCHA is as good as a team in the top half of the CCHA and just gets to the teams that were selected for this year’s tournament.

During the course of the season, Andy Miele played three games against New Hampshire, five games against Western Michigan, five games against Notre Dame and two games against Michigan. In those games, Miele had eight goals and 17 assists, a total of 25 points in 15 games. Meanwhile, so far this season, Matt Frattin has played four games against Denver, three games against Minnesota Duluth, four games against Nebraska-Omaha, two games against Notre Dame, three games against Colorado College and a game against Rensselaer. In those games, he has nine goals and six assists, a total of 15 points in 17 games.

(And if you’re one of those people who thinks that the NCAA’s selection process s awful and you think KRACH should be the method for selecting the field, the only change that would have been made this year is Minnesota for RPI. Recalculate with no goals and an assist in two games against the Gophers instead of a goal and an assist in one game against RPI, and you get eight goals and six assists in 18 games.)

Personally, I think Frattin has had a tremendous season, and had a heck of a Hobey Baker Moment when he scored the game-winning goal against Denver in the WCHA title game. On the whole, though, if you’re talking about scoring against the best teams on the schedule, Miele does, in fact, have an edge.

Update, 9:20 a.m. After being called on the carpet by a commenter who had a point, I decided to include the stats against tournament teams for Cam Atkinson. This season, Atkinson played two games against Denver, one against Notre Dame,  four against Merrimack, three against New Hampshire and one against Colorado College. In those 11 games, Atkinson had 12 goals and seven assists, which makes for a favorable comparison with the other two players. I don’t think, however, that it’s enough to put him past the nation’s overall leading scorer or the nation’s top goal-scorer in the eyes of the Hobey voters. I suppose I could be wrong, however…it’s certainly happened enough.

Previous articleThe “character” issue, again
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Elliot Olshansky covers the Hobey Baker Award beat for and also covers men’s and women's hockey and lacrosse at for Turner Sports. His experience includes four years covering college hockey for CSTV, stints at other media outlets including the New York Daily News and Spike TV, and freelance writing. His debut novel, "Robert's Rules of Karaoke," is currently available from The Write Deal (
  • Poker Face

    Seriously, Elliot, your blogs about the Hobey have been horrendous for years now and you just keep clinging on and refusing to give it up while going on and on and on every year. I mean that as no disrespect to you but when you need to dig up things kids did before they got to college it’s time to step back and stop overanalyzing. This kid punched someone in a parking lot. This kid was caught drinking a beer before he was 21 and there is a grainy cell phone pic of it to prove it. This kid cheated on his taxes a little bit. This kid peeked at his Christmas presents when he was 5 years old and he was asked not to by his parents. This kid took a penalty with a few minutes left in the last game of the season.

    Who. The. Freak. Cares? No one is perfect. No one. Your inability to keep things in perspective simply gives us blogs and blogs of garbage to have to sift through each year. It’s annoying. Let’s step back and look at the best players (not necessarily the best numbers) and weight the character issue realistically.

    I do however like the breakdowns like we saw at INCH and like the one you did above against other competition rather than just say “Frattin plays in the ZOMG WCHA so he’s the greatest 4 EVA (except for Parise).” Let’s get more of this and less of the digging through a kid’s past to come up with a reason to not vote for him.

    Lastly, I think it’s disrespectful to exclude Atkinson from your breakdowns. Well, you didn’t exclude him, you did include him to mention he got arrested in high school. Well done. Stay classy.

    • Big Al

      Thanks for the post PF, I think you are dead spot on.

      As ET said in the movie named after him, “EL…I…OT… phone home, phone home”.

    • Elliot Olshansky

      I’m not looking for reasons not to vote for anyone, and I’m certainly not the one digging things up. I’ve never voted for the Hobey, and I’ve never been asked.

      What I do when I follow the Hobey is note the issues, and give my own analysis of how they affect the race. In the case of Frattin, I am far from the first to mention the arrest, and I would never be the first to mention it.

      I have no desire to tear down Matt Frattin. I think it’s a tremendous credit to him that he stayed in college hockey rather than run off to the pros when he was kicked off the team at North Dakota, and shows a real desire to develop as a human being, and not just as a hockey player. Does what happened affect his candidacy for the award? Yes, and that’s why I’ve written about it.

      As for Cam Atkinson, it was pointed out after my last post that I’d said that Frattin loses points in the character section of the award criteria when compared to players who had never had a disciplinary issue in their careers, like Miele and Atkinson. Commenters pointed out the Atkinson arrest, which, while it doesn’t change the truth of my statement that he’d never had a disciplinary issue in his college hockey career – it happened before he was in college – did make it seem uneven.

      As for whether I include him in my comparisons, you have a point, and I’ve added Cam’s stats above.

      • 18secondsbeforesunrise


        Keep up the good work. Your arguments/points are valid, and there are a lot of us who are glad you bring them up. Oh yeah, I just love ‘stats’.

        PS) It seems like most of the individuals bashing your writing aren’t aware that they are simply shooting the messenger.

      • Turnerkc

        This one time, Andy Miele was walking by an adorable puppy and he didn’t stop to pet it. He evaded jail time for it but I’ll post it here.

        • Anonymous

          I heard they have a new pill that treats ignorance, and it is free in Grand Forks. You should get some. Today!

    • Legit

      Lets calm down. The stuff he is pointing out people do care. The Hobey is not just about your skills on the ice its about character off the ice. Frankly people who are getting arrested and throwing lawnmowers off of houses does not really show great leadership. Unless the leadership is for the lawnmower throwing team. So when he talks about these things is keeping things in perspective. Plus I do not see you with a real blog or saying anything important but complaining that you just took the time to read it. If you dont like what he posts then stop reading them and let the rest of us enjoy.

      • ND

        The Hobey goes to the best player in college hockey, who also has the best character.. THIS SEASON!!! Character issues from the past should have no influence on the voting process THIS YEAR unless the off ice issues took place THIS YEAR.. Quit knocking Atkinson or Frattin.. If anything, someone should get praised for their commitment to their team, not dogged on.. Meile is a good candidate, no question about it, but when Frattin decided to change his character I’m pretty sure he wasn’t bluffing.. Good luck to Meile and Frattin (I’m a Sioux fan so obviously I don’t want Atkinson to win it.)

        • 18secondsbeforesunrise

          I just wanted to respond to the ‘THIS SEASON’ part. Nowhere in the Hobey Criteria does it specify as being “who has the best character this season”.

          Check out the criteria at

          Yes, stats for the season in question are paramount; prior years’ stats do not matter. In contrast, I seriously doubt that the Hobey Baker Committee members look at each candidate’s character ONLY for the calendar year in question. That just doesn’t make any sense. Character on&off the ice is the 1st of the 4 criteria listed.

          For the record, I feel any of the Hobey Hat Trickers are worthy of the award.

    • Jim

      Elliott just got served

      • Jim

        And if anyone wants to see what he looks like and his interest are go to his facebook page, WOW, are you sure you shouldn’t be writing blogs for play reviews?

        • RedRising

          Settle down Jim. You are making yourself look bad and while I won’t let that mar your favorite candidate’s image, others may.

  • GeauxSioux

    I think you all need to lay off Mr. Olshansky. You’re making it seem like he does nothing right. Let him do his job.

    He doesn’t come into your office and tell you how to make copies, does he?

    • Jim

      First he is a sports blogger, it comes with his job. If you want people to read your articles, well your going to hear about it. Im sure Mr. Olshansky does not understand that the Hobby is for the best player of the year in college hockey. It is not based off of character. Unless your from the east coast, then your vote goes to whatever east coast player gets into the hat trick.

      • Anonymous

        It is based on character among other criteria.

        A few years ago, the kid from Air Force was in the Hobey Hat Trick. There is no way he was a Top 3 Player in all of College Hockey. He was there for his great stats (against poor competition), but more importantly for his Outstanding Character.

        • Jim

          Yes I pointed out this already, east coast votes, (what I should have said is vote non WCHA) – As How J. Connolly UMD is not in the final three. In my opioion

          • Anonymous

            I agree, he should be in there instead of Atkinson, and Frattin.

          • collegehockeyfan

            how above Frattin??? because he had one good game in the tournament? Please present some facts/stats/opinions or anything that can have a case as to why he should be there instead of Frattin or even Atkinson, who has had a great season, despite the loss in the tournament, BC won almost every other trophy they could. Yes Connolly is good, but did he do anything that stands out more than the other two? I think they got it right on the Hobey Hat Trick, Connolly would have been #4 in my opinion as it is.

          • I’m not disagreeing with your really buuuuuut . . .The Bean Pot? Come on!!! Will people please stop looking at this as an achievement . . . or a bragging right for anybody outside MA.

          • Anonymous

            If somebody has an arrest record during there college experience, in my opinion, I do not believe they should be considered for the Hobey Baker Award.


          • collegehockeyfan

            I’m about done with the Hobey argument, it’s not about the players season on the ice anymore, its who did what in the past before this season started and i can guarantee you the committee is not going to vote soley based on that. I’m sick of the people bringing up the past events from Frattin, Atkinson, I dont care, unless it happened after the first practice this year, its not gonna matter. We are debating who is the best hockey player to his team and individual skill and as of now, Frattin has it in the bag, Thanks everyone, see ya after the FF.

          • Anonymous

            You should be done, you haven’t made a logical argument yet. You are guaranteeing what the committee is thinking.

            Problem is, people do care about the Character Debate, and regardless of when the incident took place. He got kicked off his team! How can one argue his Character is in tact?

          • collegehockeyfan

            The argument I have been trying to make is that if it happened this year, I would agree with you 100%. But both Frattin’s and Atkinson’s have happened in the past years. Therefore, I do not believe the committee will take that into account. If anything, I know for sure, Frattin’s character is unmatched this year, he has answered any questions – attacks – etc, from the media, or even the Sioux community, and he has taken it in stride and still plays as a top caliber player. Atkinson, I’m sure did the same thing after his altercations. So yes Meile is a good player, but you have also failed to bring up a debate as to why he should be the Hobey. All you have said is that the character of Frattin and Atkinson will be the reason either of them aren’t picked. On the ice, I would pick both Frattin and Atkinson over Miele, and that is what this award is about.

            I was on the Miele bandwagon right away, but after watching the regional game, Miele was almost non-existing. Unless someone told you before the game, any random person wouldn’t be able to pick him out as a Hobey Candidate. That’s my reasoning, take it as you want, Frattin is the Hobey winner.

          • Anonymous

            You are making a judgment based on one game you saw Miele play. I am not sure of your access to the CCHA, but I live in Minnesota, and have seen Miele play 5 or 6 times, and Frattin about the same. They are both very good players, both will play in the NHL.

            What surprises me though, is that you make a judgment based on one game. If you look at my post from Elliot’s Blog from five days ago, I clearly state the best comparison would be to look each other stats against NCAA Tourny teams. This valid and fair comparison shows Miele has been more consistent against top teams all year. Look at the stats. Miele has 1 less goal (8) against the NCAA Field, than Frattin (9), and he has played 2 less games against the NCAA Field.

            So what does this one comparison tell us? One conclusion is that Miele is the better player.

            In my opinion, along with this comparison, and other benchmarks regarding on ice performance, and we can agree to disagree on the off ice stuff. Taking in the whole package of information. I believe that Andy Miele deserves to win the Hobey Baker Award.

            Here are some other information to compare with Frattin.

            Lead Nation in Scoring with 1.82 pts./pg
            Led Nation in Assists
            Assistant Captain voted by teammates.
            CCHA Playoff MVP
            Scored Game Winner in CCHA Championship
            CCHA Player of the Year (Unanimous Winner)

            Never been in trouble with the Law, not this year, not during college, not the year before college.

      • Jim

        And who is still playing, I win

      • WCHAProud

        Actually Character is in the Hobey criteria. See criteria #1

      • RedRising

        It is for the best player in College hockey, a title which is in part determined by character. Both the general term, “best player in college hockey” definition and the specific character designation lead to the same player and that is Andy Miele. I do not get why some WCHA fans and ND fans keep trying to pass character through a sieve and state the award is for the best player in college hockey. Everyone knows that, and you are just building into an already air-tight case that Andy Miele should be awarded the Hobey. Your boy’s (Matt Frattin) main competition (Andy Miele) doesn’t need any help. He embodies the Hobey more than anyone else in college hockey this year. There have been better players and probably will be. Ask Andy Miele about that and he’d probably point out strengths in his teammates (and even many of his “opponents”!) Thats a small part of what makes him the Hobey this year. I’m not taking anything away from Matt Frattin. I’ve watched his highlights and a few full games with him. Great player. Smart player. Andy is more of both. And seriously he does seem to have really moved on with his life since his trouble. I hope none of my fellow RedHawk fans are degrading him for it. But then every supportee will have supporters of different colors. Cheerio!

  • I don’t know how an argument that you can’t score more when playing crappy teams is helpful. Are they not trying as much? That is a character issue. Are there lesser skilled line mates scoring more? Is that why Miele has so many assists? Numbers can mean anything you want them to, this is dumb. Which numbers are more important? How about the numbers in the end of the season tournaments or the last part of the season?

    Elliot can you do me a favor? Throw away the numbers, give an assessment of who the best all around player is and why. I want to hear WHY Miele is the best player (not passer) and by what degree, instead of an argument about numbers (off ice stuff is subjective and we can leave to the readers own imagination). Conversely, why is Frattin the best all-around player (not goal scorer) and why.

    • Anonymous

      If you weren’t so focused on what you were going to say next, you clearly would see that he has told you over the past few blogs, who he thinks is going to win the Hobey Baker Award, and Why.

      Miele over Frattin



      Points against Top Teams:
      Meile over Frattin

      NCAA Tourny Scoring:

      Numbers in the last 14 Games:

      His next Blog is going to tell the readers that Miele is going to win the Hobey Baker Award.

      What else is there? They both play in all situations, PP, PK, Extra Man. Both are leaders, Miele is an Assistant Captain voted by his teammates. Frattin (I am not sure), but I do not see a letter on his sweater, but still can be a leader. Both play for high profile programs. Both teams are in the Top 5 in defense/offense.

      What else is there?

      Elliot has tried to stay away from his opinion, and tried to lay out the Stats, Comparisons, and some objective opinions based on documented incidences to give the readers information to make there own judgments.

      • ND

        Top Teams:
        Frattin (considering the WCHA has way more depth and talent than any other conference, and that’s where Frattin has blown Meile out, to back that up I’m going to say that Meile wouldn’t of put up numbers like that without Carter Camper or simply playing in the WCHA)..
        Last 15 games:
        Meile (if you consider chocking at crunch time a plus, disregarding his CCHA tournament performance because it can easily be compared to Frattins clutch performance at the forever prestigious Final Five.)

        • collegehockeyfan

          if anything Camper was probably more of a candidate, he was the one putting the puck in the net, not Meile

          • HockeyFan

            If you talk to Miele’s teammates they would inform you that he dishes out gift goals for them every game.

          • ND

            I concur

          • Bean Counter

            Camper had 19 goals, 38 assists this season.

        • What?

          Character: Tie?

          Put down the crack pipe

          • Blinky The Wonder Chimp

            Some serious drugs being passed around in Fargo tonight.

          • ND

            Grand Forks

          • I guarantee no Bison will ever win the Hobey

          • ND

            It’s a marijuana pipe.. and yes I speak the truth, it’s called “redemption” buddy..

        • Huge Sioux fan here . . . character . . . tie? I’m going to say that Miele (even throwing away the big arrest) has a slight advantage here.

        • RedRising

          So Miele had Camper…apparently Frattin is the sole representative of North Dakota doing anything with their icetime…his teammates are mere infants who can do nothing against the behemoths of the WCHA. Miele points out he is just a member of a team that has often performed incredibly well together this year. Both ND and MU had their ups and downs. I will diverge from Miele’s total team credit message and point out that Camper’s numbers dropped once he played with Miele less. Guess whose numbers rose when they played with Miele more? Reilly Smith’s. That’s who. Now obviously they all played off of each other throughout the year, but there is a trend there. Even with Carter Camper jumping out early and often the Miami locker room was soon filled with talented team members declaring, “Hobey Miele”.

          Many people have pointed out that Andy Miele is an all around playmaker. This trait is part of the reason that 20 NHL teams were gunning for a free agent listed as 5’9″ 180 lbs. Is that rare? What was the stat…he was on the ice for something like 28/34 goals scored by Miami. Thats insane. Andy Miele will for one year at least slay the term, “Hobey likes goals”. Or maybe redub it, “Of course Hobey likes goals, but Hobey loves Andy Miele”.
          Both ND and MU are strong teams with strong players who help each other. Miele and Frattin would both be remiss to miss the opportunity of crediting their teams and both do credit them. If you want to credit teammates with the individual’s success over the individual, which team has more All-Americans? And yes, having the First Team Goalie on a team helps the skaters. Fact.

          I’ll cut myself short. Peace out.

        • Anonymous

          In an earlier post you stated,

          “It’s all well and good to learn from your mistakes, but that doesn’t put you on equal footing with people who never made those mistakes in the first place.”

          How is Frattin and Miele a tie then?

      • Jctaylor80

        UND consistenly plays one of the most difficult schedules in college hockey, Chew on that one!

        • Anonymous

          So does Miami!

          • Guest

            If you would like further proof that the WCHA is a tougher league, only one team in the WCHA has an easier SOS that Miami, and that was Wisconsin. Every single WCHA team is in the to 15 for SOS.

      • Thank you, you put it together really nicely! Even though you still quoted stats without giving actual numbers.

        I wasn’t being a dick with my post or trying to cut down elliot either, by the way. I was seriously asking for him to give a different approach because I want his opinion . . .

        IE Frattin appears to be a more powerful skater who can protect the puck well on rushes but looks to shoot first, while Miele is a faster skater with better vision and finesse who can still fight for the puck along the boards.

        • Guest

          It really doesnt matter. Frattin will go on and have a career in the NHL while that nobody from Miami will play in the ECHL or maybe even europe.

          • Anonymous

            You realize the other NoDak Fans on website, are calling you a donkey right now!

            If this is the level of character you expect, than I can see how you think Frattin, is a character guy!

  • Jdorf40

    I’m sorry, but I think that this should be a 2 horse race. It should be between Frattin and Atkinson. Miele scored 24 goals in 39 games this season. Jason Gregoire scored more goals than Miele did and he played 14 fewer games. Miele wasn’t the leading goal scorer on his own team, and racked up 47 assists while skating on a team that sported 3 of the nations top 4 scorers. Wow!
    Frattin scored more PP goals, more SH goals, more GW goals and also has a +/- advantage of +6 over Miele. Atkinson scored more PP, SH and GW goals than Miele although Miele did end up +1 more than Atkinson. When it’s all said and done… 34% of Miele’s points were him actually burying the biscuit vs. one of his other linemates. 60% of Atkinsons’s points were him actually scoring the goal (he also played with a 50 point scorer, but after that the next highest point total for anyone on their team was 33 points). 60% of Frattin’s points were him actually turning the lamp on while skating on a line with Trupp and Malone who both failed to crack 45 points total on the season.
    You can talk about who played who, or what team played the toughest schedule any day of the week. But Frattin and Atkinson are goal scorers. They play physical and they’re deadly regardless of who they’re on the ice with. I fear Miele when he’s on the ice with goal scorers. If he’s not…he isn’t nearly as dangerous as the other two.

    • Anonymous

      Are you serious? This has been a 2 horse race for the last 4 weeks. Everyone knew Miele and Frattin would be in the Final 3.

      Elliot does not add Atkinson in his comparison because Atkinson is Extra. He is not going to win the Hobey. This is not a shot against him, he is a hell of a player. By adding him to the comparison, it only shows you how average Frattin is against the Top teams. Not even a point per game.

      His comparison is valid, and when you talk about playing in big games Miele has 1 less goal than Frattin against teams in the NCAA Tourny. and Frattin played two more games than Miele against the teams in the comparison.

      When is someone going to come out and say that Miele is the best player in the NCAA? Because based on all the criteria for the Hobey, Miele is the best player in College Hockey.

      • Jdorf40

        I am serious. Do you really think the Hobey goes to the “best” player in the country every year? Heck no it doesn’t.
        Miele sort of reminds me of Ryan Duncan the year that he won the Hobey. Ryan Duncan was not the best player on his own team, let alone in all of college hockey. T.J. Oshie and Jonathan Toews were both better than he was, but he managed to rack up a ton of points by being paired up with them. Duncan was also a character guy. You won’t find a nicer person out there. The biggest difference between Duncan and Miele was that Duncan put the puck in the net. The year he won the award he was good for 31 goals, 26 assists for a 57 point total. Goal scorer. In fact, in the past 10 years there have been 6 forwards that have won the Hobey Baker.
        Of those 6, only 2 of them had fewer goals than assists. Peter Sejna in 2003 had 36 goals and 46 assists for 82 total points. 44% of his points were goals. As a junior, Marty Sertich had 27 goals, 37 assists for 64 total points. That put him at 42%. How did he fare his senior year? He went for 14 goals, 36 assists for a 50 point total on the season. His goal production was cut in half, because it’s a lot harder to score goals than rack up assists while other people are banging it home.
        If Miele wins the Hobey this year he’ll be the first forward to win the award that didn’t score at least 25 goals. The last person to score only 25 goals that won it? Paul Kariya, 18 years go. That year he had 25 goals, 75 assists (more assists than Miele’s points combined) for 100 points total. The award should go to the goal scorer. But it doesn’t matter…the decisions already been made. I’d like to see Frattin win it, but I’d rather see us bring home #8.

        • Anonymous

          Having read your Sioux faithful use that argument for the past few days in their replies, I am just saying that it can be argued that Miele IS the best player in College Hockey.

          Where you are mistaken in my opinion, is that it is not easier to rack up assists than score goals. That is like saying Gretzky only got all those assists because he played with Kurri. Was Kurri a better player? Come on!

          Bernie Nichols scored 70 goals playing with Gretzky. Was Bernie a better player.

          Your argument has some validity, but not in the case of Miele. He made those players into goal scorers, they did not make him into a playmaker.

          • Hockey God

            It is easier to rack up assists than score goals. Often times there are two assists awarded to one goal scored.

          • Freiday31

            Good point. I was very bored in the airport during a delay, so I went through each box score and found that (if referees reported goals correctly) that Frattin had 36 goals and 19 primary assists versus Miele’s 24 goals and 30 primary assists.

            I have always thought that the secondary assist was overrated. For example, is players A,B,C are on a 3-2 rush, and C passes to B, who passes to A for a goal on a bang bang play, it is scored A from B and C. But if A,B are on a two on one and A passes to B back to A for a bang bang goal, A doesn’t get credit for his initial pass. I know this seems ridiculous, and you can all rip on me, but didn’t A do as much as C on that first pass. Why not give him a goal and an assist. Is it really an assist when the goalie dumps the puck up the boards and a guy goes end to end for a goal?

            So in my world, the are all probably deserving and I would think either Miele or Frattin will win. They are pretty comparable on the scoring side, I would have to give Frattin the edge on the physical and all=around side.

            Just my 2 cents.

          • Bean Counter

            Not that it matters, but Miele had 31 primary assists.

          • Jdorf40

            You’re right. It doesn’t matter.

          • Bean Counter



          • Anonymous

            When is the last time the same guy received two assists on the same goal? Nice point!

          • Jctaylor80

            Yout talking about players in another era, was Miele or Frattin alive when Gretzky scored 92 goals and 215-216 points. interesting enough i was looking around and Jeff Panzer lost the hobey to Ryan Miller in 01 and had over 80 points! there are different eras, you can’t compare

          • Anonymous

            I am not comparing the era they played in, just the fact that a playmaker can be a better hockey player than a goal scorer. The time in which they played makes no difference.

      • GeauxSioux

        You forgot (at least) one glaring point here. Miele was a non-factor in the last game he played – the same game Miami’s season was ended. Frattin is still playing.

        That in mind, let’s take a look at both players’ performances in the playoffs – where the character and leadership of a Hobey finalist should shine through. Forget all the off-ice crap.

        First, Miele:

        CCHA Quarters:
        2G, 2A in two 4-1 Miami wins (50% of Miami’s points)

        CCHA Semis:
        2G, 2A in 6-2 Miami win (66% of Miami’s points)

        CCHA Finals:
        0G, 1A in 5-2 Miami win (20% of Miamis points)

        NCAA 1st Round:
        0G, 0A in 3-1 Miami loss (0% of Miami’s points)

        Now, Frattin:

        WCHA 1st Round:
        4G, 1A in two (8-0, 3-1) UND wins (45% of UND’s points)

        WCHA Semis:
        1G, 1A in 4-3(OT) UND win (50% of UND’s points)

        WCHA Finals:
        1G, 0A in 3-2(2OT) UND win (33% of UND’s points)

        NCAA 1st Round:
        1G, 1A in 6-0 UND win (33% of UND’s points)

        NCAA Regional Final:
        0G, 1A in 6-1 UND win (16% of UND’s points)

        That’s 9 (4G, 5A) points for Miele, 11 ( 7G, 4A) for Frattin. It could be argued that these are pretty even numbers since Frattin only has 2 more points than Miele during crunch time.

        Miele gets all his 9 points in the CCHA playoffs whereas Frattin gets 8 in the WCHA playoffs. Miele folds in the NCAA tournament and Frattin tacks on 3 more points in 2 games. Pretty clear who has been better down the stretch (when it counts).

        If UND wins on Thursday and Frattin gets a point or two, this thing is a done deal unless the selection committee has their selection prior to Thursday (which they may????).

        • Anonymous

          Miami’s first round playoff was against Alaska. The CCHA gives a first round bye to the top 6 teams.

          Miele had 2-2 in two games against Alaska in the 1st Round. Alaska was a TUC up to that point.

          He had 2-2 against Notre Dame in the CCHA Semi’s

          He had 1-1 against WMU in the CCHA Championship Game including the Game Winner.

          He had 5-5 for 10pts. in 5 playoff games.

          Your comparison is not even close to Apples to Apples. Frattin had 20% of his points against Michigan Tech this year. Big Deal!

          • ND

            Yea, that’s because when you put an all-star against a weak team they produce.. Just like the players from MIami… They produce against weak teams in a weak conference

          • Anonymous

            Weak Conference? Why is it weak? You just added Bemidji State.

            Michigan Tech has the worst program in the all of College Hockey. Minnesota State?

            Omaha-Nebraska was a middle of the road team in the CCHA, and in their first year, they cleaned up on your WCHA, finishing in the Top 3.

            This isn’t five years ago. The WCHA is just one of the Top 3 Conferences.

          • Jonathanlvoigt

            Michigan Tech beat Lake Superior (#9 in the CCHA) and Northern Michigan (#7 in the CCHA). The only WCHA team Miami played this year was St. Cloud (#9 in the WCHA), against whom they were 1-1-1, and miele only had 1g,1a. Frattin, in 4 games against St. Cloud, had 4g,3a. Meanwhile, ND played three games against CCHA teams, 1 against Alaska (#7 in the CCHA) and 2 against Notre Dame (#2 in the CCHA), went 2-1, and Frattin had 2g,1a. Against the WCHA, the CCHA is 12-17-7. Not to mention the CCHA has its own current bottom feeders in Bowling Green and Michigan State, against whom Andy Miele racked up 14 pts in 6 games, almost 15% of his points. The point being that the WCHA IS the stronger conference, and the bottom feeders in the WCHA consistently beat middle of the road CCHA teams (Mankato beat Notre Dame, Bemidji split with Northern Michigan and beat Ferris State).

          • GeauxSioux

            I know this.

            I just said this.

            I just said this, too.

            I missed his goal against WMU, my apologies.

            You either missed my point or chose to ignore it. Simple as that.

          • HOCKEYFAN

            You missed his GAME WINNING goal against WMU

        • Hockey God

          The winner has already been chosen.

          • GeauxSioux

            I figured. Thanks.

        • Thursday doesn’t matter, the decision has been made . . .

        • Whoopsie!

          The 4 g 1a in the first round of WCHA adds to an already very large amount scored on one of the weakest teams in collegiate hockey. The rest of Frattins team also beat up on this very weak team. Point. While being a solid team UND particularly knows how to beat up on a weak Mich Tech team. Take those points out and what does Frattin have? I think they account for over 20% of his total points/goals on the year. I can type nothing else than lol. Lol. Andy Miele had how many 5 point weekends (or more) demonstrating consistency against teams of all skill levels. Blabla bla. Both candidates are very strong, but I will be surprised if Frattin wins.

      • Hockey God

        Miele may win the Hoby, but he is far from the best player in the NCAA or college hockey.

    • jt68

      Well said sir

  • Goalie Fan

    Another issue you might want consider when voting for Frattin is how vital a team member he has been to this Sioux squad this year. Lifting his team up when needed, becoming a leader on and off the ice this year, all around just the best teamate anyone could have. Not to mention he’s the only one of the three candidates that brought his team to the Frozen Four while the others were either leaving early for the pros or not showing up and scoring a point in the first game of the NCAA’s.. He’s right there and still coming for you (Michigan) so beware.

    • Anonymous

      Good Points! Miele never lifted his team when needed. He was already a leader voted Assistant Captain by his teammates. Yeah, you could say the best teammate anyone could have.

      Atkinson has 2 National Championships, Miele has been to the Frozen Four twice.

      UNH did a great job of shutting him down.

      You are correct! Your last point is so profound. I am shocked that no one else has this as the determining factor on who gets the Hobey Baker Award. You really differentiated Frattin from the other two guys.

      Elliot, please offer Goalie Fan a weekly column for next season. Their takes on College Hockey are revolutionary, and I cannot wait for more.

      • Goalie Fan

        I like how you used words such as “has been and was.” I am not talking about their past accomplishments or whether they should be considered a solid leader or not.. I was just stating some OTHER things that may be considered as to who should be up for consideration for the award. Why keep talking about things people already know and have read?

        Another, live in the present and not the past. Frattin is doing it now! This isnt Hobey 09′ or 10′ If you dont think being the leading goal scorer in the Nation and bringing your team to the FF is not a better reason to give out the award to and you would rather bring up past mishaps or mistakes than I guess that just how you roll, which is more than fine with me as I am sure neither of us are voting for who the winner is going to be anyway.

        • GTF

          Yes live in the past. Don’t be talking about this season or the WCHA tournament then. That is in the past as well. Give me a break.

          • Fan of #8

            Not sure who that comment was towards but ok man. Obviously not getting the point

  • Irish Spectre

    Atkinson’s stats vs. tourney teams “…makes for a favorable comparison with the other two players.”

    More specifically, it’s puts him AHEAD of them, just for the record.

    • Jim

      You do know Frattin got the game winning goal in the WCHA champoinship right soryy pal your out!

      • Anonymous

        So did Miele in the CCHA Championship Game.

        • GeauxSioux

          Scoring the 3rd goal of a game where your team wins 5-2 is hardly the same as a 2OT GWG and you know this.

          • MU_DYNASTY

            How bout MIELE is already playing in the NHL TOMORROW? Whereas Frattin is still mulling about in the college ranks.

            This FLAWLESS LOGIC clearly indicates that ANDY MIELE is the superior hockey player, therefore more deserving of the Hobey Baker.

            Also, I heard rumor that Matt Frattin stabs babys with forks. Can anyone confirm/deny these claims?

          • Jctaylor80

            duh! he’s not in the NHL, he’s going to the AHL, where he will likely stay. don’t you think that he would rather be in the mix for a national championship…

          • MU_DYNASTY

            All articles I’m reading say he’s travelling with the team to Los Angeles and while it’s likely that he won’t see much (if any) ice time in these last three games, so that was my mistake in stating that he is “playing” in the NHL, however, he is with an NHL franchise.

            and I’m pretty sure if you asked Andy Miele what his childhood dream was he’ll tell you that it was to PLAY IN THE NHL, not win a NC$$ CHAMPIONSHIP.

            BUT SERIOUSLY, Andy Miele for Hobey.

          • collegehockeyfan

            then he should not be a hobey candidate. It’s a college hockey award and if he really doesn’t have the drive to win the NCAA title, then he shouldn’t be in the running for a college hockey award. Pretty simple.

          • I’m pretty sure Miele would rather be in the NCAA championship than fill out the last three games with the Coyotes (maaaaybe play, but not be eligible for the Stanley Cup playoffs). Don’t be silly . . . . and if that wasn’t the case it would show a real lack of character.

            Now, I do think Miele will win.

          • GeauxSioux

            I have a feeling I’m going to regret arguing with you because you’re probably a waste of my time, but MIELE is NOT playing in the NHL tomorrow, NOR is he playing COLLEGE HOCKEY on Thursday which is what HOBEY cares about. Baffles me how off-center some people can be.

          • MU_DYNASTY

            Aww, I hope you don’t regret it. I’m truly, truly honored that you took the time to respond to my self-proclaimed “FLAWLESS” logic. Yes, I was misled about Miele playing in the NHL tomorrow and that misleading was reflected in my previous post.

            Also, please clarify what you mean by “off-center”. Did you mean “likes to troll college hockey website and make comments that cause people to get their panties in a bunch about a collegiate sport that gets little to no coverage in America?” Then yes, call me off-center.

          • MU_DYNASTY

            And don’t bother to tell me to “get a life”, because I have one. One that includes free time, which I promise you isn’t all utilized being a web-based pest.

          • collegehockeyfan

            yeah and Atkinson signed, and you know what, Frattin will probably sign right after the tournament too. doesn’t prove anything.

          • 18secondsbeforesunrise

            Excellent point.

            Getting to the next level is what most college hockey players desire. If UND’s season were over (I know, I know, it’s not…), Frattin would also move on to the next level, right now.

            I don’t see how this is a character issue.

          • Its not a character issue unless he didn’t care enough to show up (physically or mentally) in the NCAA tournament. I’m pretty sure that its not the case, and he would rather be in the Frozen Four than scrubbin’ it for 3 days with Phoenix

          • MN_Hockey

            i hate the sioux so i dont want to see frattin win but how does miele being in the nhl now make him beter than frattin. miele couldnt advance his team in the playoffs and frattin could. and by the way the ccha blows

          • Anonymous

            It is going to be fun to see the Gophers in the bottom half of the Big Ten.

            No different than the last 5 years in the WCHA is guess.

          • HOCKEYFAN

            How is it not the same? The game was tied 2-2 with less than 10 minutes to go. Miele scores to put Miami up 1, while taking a cross check in the back to draw an ensuing penalty. Sounds pretty game winning to me bud. BTW its go, not geaux

  • Mike

    Personally I’d love to see the shooting percentage of Frattin and Miele. I’m quite sure Frattin shoots more than Miele. Would like to see Frattin’s shooting percentage regardless because he sure has a great shot.


      Frattin was 19.9 percent (on 181 shots), Miele’s was 18.6 (on 129).

      Frattin made a higher percentage of his shots than Butler did last night.

      • Bean Counter

        Interesting that there is such a large difference between Frattin and Miele for shots on goal. Reason? Individual style? Team style/role? etc.?

        What if…..Miele took the same amount of shots as Frattin? Using Miele’s percentage, he would have had 9.672 more goals.

        Ok, Ok, no more “what ifs”.

        • Anonymous

          Miele is a pass first player, Frattin is a power forward with a shoot first pass second mentality. Both good players

        • and he’d have 25 less assists and not be the points leader or the assists leader or the goals leader . . .

          Miele is great in his own way because of the way he plays. You make Frattin start playing differently shooting less and its going to affect everything too.

  • Montelumina329

    A Hobey would be nice for Matt. From what I have seen and heard about North Dakota is that it’s more about the teams goals. I do not think that I have seen a Hak lead team with this much focus. Individual awards are nice, but this team REALLY wants that National Championship. I hope to see Matt win Friday and the team win Saturday. Go Sioux!

  • Goalie Fan

    A nice little article on Frattin’s character issues for all you haters that like to read up on the best player in college hockey. U’ll have to copy and past tho, sorry!–how-leafs-prospect-matt-frattin-turned-his-life-around

  • Last I checked this is a season award and not a post-season award or tournament award. Frattin may very well win a Frozen Four MVP and a NCAA title, but Miele was clearly the best player in college hockey this season. INCH got it right, lets hope the Hobey people do as well.

  • IsBillBakerRelatedToHobeyBaker

    What’s a hobey?


    I think Frattin should get it. Goal scoring and point production are important obviously. I’ll admit I haven’t seen Miehle play. I think Frattin might be one of the best defensive forwards in all of college hockey tho. His line is not offensively as talented as Miehle’s. Malone and Trupp are great, but not really offensive powerhouses.

  • Swendave

    Did anybody do any math on minutes played compared to scoring stats. I would think Frattin played less minutes, since UND tends to roll 4 lines. Is there a stat for points per minute?

    • Anonymous

      NoDak doesn’t roll 4 lines any more than Miami does. The question you should be asking is how many games missed due to getting kicked off the team.

      • Jason

        Have you ever even watched a north dakota game? Look at the production from each teams lower half…that to me shows how much each team plays their 4th lines. After you take out Miami’s top 9 forwards there is little to no production.

        • Anonymous

          Have you seen a Miami game other than against UNH?
          They role 4 lines as much as NoDak.
          Next Point!

      • Frattin missed just as many games as Miele did for being kicked off the team this year . . .

  • RedRising

    A new look at the stats. Points against Michigan.

    Miele had 1g 4a against Michigan this year in 2 games. This is 2.5 ppg. with .5 goals per game and 2 assists per game.

    Matt Frattin went 0g 0a in one game. This is 0 ppg with 0 goals per game and 0 assists per game.

    • RedRising

      Any takers? Any takers?

  • AndyMieleisboss

    So I set my hands to some number crunching of my own and I came up with what I think most prominently displays the difference between the 2 leading Hobey candidates. This matchup captures the essence of the gulf between Andy Miele (Hobey Baker 2011) and Matt Frattin (strong contender but ultimately runner up for the Hobey in 2011).

    And someone I know already posted it right above.



    That being said, go UMD!